INBRIMA

[Ergomatic]

Thank you, David!

[SMS88]

I see you have a black label Douglas in your cabinet, Cool.
How many of these have we seen now Hugh?.

I think it must be bordering on double figures. The majority have been mint, but a couple were playworn which indicates to me that they might well have been a promotional item, some being kept carefully and some being passed to the child(ren) of the house.
The fact that they do not all seem to have come from the same source coupled with the mix of mint and playworn examples indicates to me a likelihood that they are genuine rather than something supplied to the collectors' market latterly by a fraudster. however, that still leaves the question of whether they are code 1 or code 2. Given that the production Lesney label and the monochrome version seem to be identical apart from the colour, it is plausible that these non-standard labels came from Lesney.
Realistically though, it's probably like the SF 19d Yum Yums - we'll never know the full story for certain and each collector will have to make a value judgement as to whether the model is deserving of a place in the collection..

The interesting point for me is that it would have cost nothing for Lesney to change the colour of the ink from orange to any other colour to make labels using the original printing plates however to make this black ink negative using printing plates rather than an ink jet machine would require making up new ´´negative´´ plates which put all the ink exactly where the original plates didnt print which combined with the lack of early 1970s provenance makes me very skeptical about the source of these labels!

[Idris]

The interesting point for me is that it would have cost nothing for Lesney to change the colour of the ink from orange to any other colour to make labels using the original printing plates however to make this black ink negative using printing plates rather than an ink jet machine would require making up new ´´negative´´ plates which put all the ink exactly where the original plates didnt print which combined with the lack of early 1970s provenance makes me very skeptical about the source of these labels!

Fair comment, but two points:
1) Since we have yet to find any information on the Douglas company livery, we do not know whether the reverse, monochrome label is representative of that company's vehicles. If it is, then that would strongly suggest that the models represent some kind of promotional. If it isn't, then there's a serious credibility gap in the promotional argument.
2) The reverse labelled examples seem to be coming from different sources and in a wide range of condition. I would suggest that this indicates that they have been dispersed for some considerable time and some were felt to be worth keeping on a shelf, whilst others were given to children to play with. I admit that there's no proof, but what we now see dovetails very well with what would have happened to a promotional handed out a while ago.

[Ergomatic]

The interesting point for me is that it would have cost nothing for Lesney to change the colour of the ink from orange to any other colour to make labels using the original printing plates however to make this black ink negative using printing plates rather than an ink jet machine would require making up new ´´negative´´ plates which put all the ink exactly where the original plates didnt print which combined with the lack of early 1970s provenance makes me very skeptical about the source of these labels!

Fair comment, but two points:
1) Since we have yet to find any information on the Douglas company livery, we do not know whether the reverse, monochrome label is representative of that company's vehicles. If it is, then that would strongly suggest that the models represent some kind of promotional. If it isn't, then there's a serious credibility gap in the promotional argument.
2) The reverse labelled examples seem to be coming from different sources and in a wide range of condition. I would suggest that this indicates that they have been dispersed for some considerable time and some were felt to be worth keeping on a shelf, whilst others were given to children to play with. I admit that there's no proof, but what we now see dovetails very well with what would have happened to a promotional handed out a while ago.

Hello,

I am open to send my truck to Hugh, and he can compare it with his truck. Thickness/surface of the label, and an intresting point the tinge of the colours.The 2xpostage cost is mine of course. Hugh?

Cheers, Peter

[Idris]

[I am open to send my truck to Hugh, and he can compare it with his truck. Thickness/surface of the label, and an intresting point the tinge of the colours.The 2xpostage cost is mine of course. Hugh?

Peter, I think the issue here (for some members) is more whether this is a true late 1960s promotional item associated with Douglas (whoever they might have been) rather than any specific doubts concerning your example.I'm therefore not sure that there is anything to be gained by a side-by-side comparison of our two models.
Can you remember where your example came from and when you bought it?

On another track entirely, I was wondering whether the rebranding of the model to Pointer might not have been the result of Pointer taking over and completely absorbing Douglas. If the Pointer company can be identified and still exist, this might provide a way of determining the Douglas livery.

[Ergomatic]

Thank you, Hugh! These words save me 20Ł
I bought it on Ebay/UK on 01.03.2014. I do not know more about the former story.
Have a nice weekend!
Peter

[SMS88]

I would expect both Douglas and Pointer to be circa 1969 East London tipper operators who worked on Lesney construction projects perhaps as subcontractors for favourites Laing. Anybody with access to an East London 1969 Yellow Pages could perhaps nail them down!

[Tinman]

Pointer was/is a very large aggregate and transport firm and is still in operation.

Douglas may well have been S.T. Douglas, another large haulage firm also still in business today.

It is unlikely there is any direct or indirect connection with Lesney (such as sms88 guesses about) and highly likely the logos were the result of a deal for advertising (like BP and ESSO brand names on other models).

[kwakers]

Very interesting Joe! Both companies could also be easy enough to get information on through antique truck and equipment collectors in England. If they may in fact both still be in business, we need an English Sherlock to visit and talk with them about these strange darker Dump Truck labels. It does not bother me at all that the odd labels never got recorded in the 70s, the company may have only ordered 200 or so for employees and good customers to take home. The mint ones appearing last year could be leftover models never given out, but they are now complemented by this used one in Ergomatic's collection he has shown us. It has seen a lot of hauling in it's day, so it's history seems to have been in play use years ago. A veteran collector like Nigel Cooper or Phillip Bowdidge may have the factual answer on this one if no one on the Forum remembers them. kwakers

[Ergomatic]

Very interesting Joe! Both companies could also be easy enough to get information on through antique truck and equipment collectors in England. If they may in fact both still be in business, we need an English Sherlock to visit and talk with them about these strange darker Dump Truck labels. It does not bother me at all that the odd labels never got recorded in the 70s, the company may have only ordered 200 or so for employees and good customers to take home. The mint ones appearing last year could be leftover models never given out, but they are now complemented by this used one in Ergomatic's collection he has shown us. It has seen a lot of hauling in it's day, so it's history seems to have been in play use years ago. A veteran collector like Nigel Cooper or Phillip Bowdidge may have the factual answer on this one if no one on the Forum remembers them. kwakers

Hello,
Does anybody know a contact to Nigel Cooper or Phillip Bowdidge?
Peter