Idris wrote:I would suggest that, given the murky circumstances under which this model was produced, the use of crimped instead of rivetted axle ends, the continuing lack of any hard evidence regarding its true origins and the absence of any informations to indicate the level within the Company at which its production was authorised (if it was ever authorised at all), there is no firm basis for giving it code 2 status.
All we can say with absolute certainty at this time is that it is not a code 1.
Nothing murky about this model or thread except for idris´s perception skills trying to bury actual history and foolish lack of respect for the reputation + body of evidence including ´´that letter´´ that is Harold Colpitts legacy to the world of Matchbox collecting.
It is cast in concrete facts that the a few dozen crimped axle reverse wreckers were made for Joe Stone + Bob Brennan´s close friends circa Christmas 1969 by Lesney in Hackney and it is a factory code 2 independently verified in spring 1970 by their long time rival , Harold Colpitts. Just the first in a series of code 2s made for NAMC which included the purple/silver + red/white SF32 tankers. Dr jazz´s discovery of a playworn red tanker in Denmark is circumstantial evidence that some red tankers without NAMC labels could be code 1 giftset items
SMS88 wrote:Nothing murky about this model or thread except for idris´s perception skills trying to bury actual history and foolish lack of respect for the reputation + body of evidence including ´´that letter´´ that is Harold Colpitts legacy to the world of Matchbox collecting.
It is cast in concrete facts that the a few dozen crimped axle reverse wreckers were made for Joe Stone + Bob Brennan´s close friends circa Christmas 1969 by Lesney in Hackney and it is a factory code 2 independently verified in spring 1970 by their long time rival , Harold Colpitts. Just the first in a series of code 2s made for NAMC which included the purple/silver + red/white SF32 tankers. Dr jazz´s discovery of a playworn red tanker in Denmark is circumstantial evidence that some red tankers without NAMC labels could be code 1 giftset items
Once again, Mick displays the backruptcy of his arguments by "playing the man" instead of arguing his corner, and attempts to confuse the issue by linking the murky, factory fake wreckers to the well-documented and accepted NAMC promotional tankers.
As for “that letter”, which one are you referring to? The one that was mentioned again and again in the original Joe Stone thread, the one which supposedly proved that the models were authorised by Lesney, the one which couldn't be found and so was never actually produced as evidence?
Mick, since we're unlikely ever to agree on this model (and are probably boring everyone else on the Forum in the process), let's agree to disagree and move on to more productive discussions.
kwakers wrote:
....... I do understand the argument on the crimped axles versus the stock riveted ones still being produced, but maybe they were purposely done that way for easy identification, as well as being unique for our most veteran U.S. collectors they were done for(?).
On another point made earlier: If a 'Fake' model were to have been made with bare castings removed from the Factory, why not modify the booms and use decals and the riveting machine to make accurate 'Fake' 1965 re-creations. They would have been worth hundreds apiece even in 1970 with a world wide market. The reversed Wrecker was always a well known 'Holy Grail' Lesney because of their being pictured in all kinds of Lesney ads and publications in 1965. I have never owned either reversed Wrecker myself......... :kwakers
My view & take-
At the time of the contemplation of "reviving" the Reverse Wreckers for certain collectors (or a handful) the correct body castings were never available for sure.It would have been a major task/almost an impossibility to find any surplus early cab castings due to it being an "error" /pre-production short run.I presume by then (circa 1965) that the original moulds were changed or modified for added strength during progression/timeline for all Dodge Wrecker production runs and until halt.The same applies with the initial thin boom moulds or maybe even completely destroyed for that matter cos we have yet to come across a complete Reverse Wrecker casting (beater/average/mint) with the later correct BP colors,either as a one-off,few-off or a short production run.
I believe that if all the required components(initial/early casting components) were available to them (those responsible) around 1970 then they would certainly have opted to copy/exact the real deal incl the peend axle-ends,hooks and decals.
numi.
numi
One cannot do much with all the monies in this world but can do much more if he strives toward contentment.
Very odd and all outward signs point to a fake. While I really don't like the looks of the one rivet, the labels are even more troubling. The 13d label on this model is the larger early paper label which was long out of use when the "factory fake" was made, it should have the small paper label. The other label is from a 32c tanker. The amber dome light is all wrong and probably from a superfast model (the only model with a removable dome light in the RW era was a Kingsize model).
The origins of the crimped axle reverse Wrecker are really known facts in America Idris. They had been published and then amended here in the U.S. as the truth came out, much to Harold's displeasure with the situation. Many of these 'original' crimped axle Wreckers have changed hands out of the elderly veteran Lesney people's collections in the New York City area. I had my chance 39 years ago to buy one of these (NOT for the original $15 Harold published, they had already become very expensive because so few were made originally!) from a dealer/ collector I still see twice a year. Much like yourself Idris, the crimped axles and the controversy surrounding them kept me from having much interest in them even that long ago.
Equating these 2nd gen. reverse Wreckers to the original NAMC Superfast Tankers is not at all a stretch, All Bob's Club members such as ourselves being in upstate N.Y., received one of those Tankers with our early memberships between 1971 and 1973. They were not sold in stores, but were Lesney factory models painted in different colors than 'stock' in quantity this time. We didn't care who affixed the NAMC transfers, we were just proud to have one of these non-controversial 'Club Specials' for our collections. Bob never cataloged these Tankers as a Lesney Code one variation, just like he never cataloged the 2nd generation reverse Wreckers, (but did code the 1965 reverse color version as his well-known first variant 13-4 of that model).
Hi Numi! The point I was making earlier was that if someone still thinks these 2nd gen. reverse Wreckers were MEANT to be back door fakes rather than factory produced 'Specials' for a select group of U.S. collectors, the perpetrator could have modified the booms on these brand new castings to make them an accurate re-creation of the original 1965 casting. Why make $15 models if an accurate easily done modified one could bring $100 in 1970?? Gray hooks are still available even today on beaters, and if original Lesney factory decals were sold in the 1980s, they probably still had some in 1970 to use on these. Why such an inaccurate 2nd run? They were designed to be just that, a run of inaccurate tribute models for a few friends in New York. How many? 36, 50, 75, the estimate on that figure is probably buried in a 40+ year old publication or letter, but is still known by a few elderly hobbyists still alive from that N.Y. City area. I never remember anyone talking numbers on these, and I have always listened very closely to collectors for facts on this secretive private run of 2nd gen. reverse Wreckers.
I understand your frustration Idris, these 2nd gen reverse Wreckers are not, and will never be code one models, but they have a cult following like no other Lesney. They still command huge $$ that you and I just cannot understand.....kwakers
:kwakers