13d Wrecker GREEN cab "HOLY GRAIL" copy

[SMS88]

Supported by tinman´s expert opinion when he examined one closely - impossible to tell apart from known genuine Lesney crimps!

We discussed this on the old forum and it was suggested that it was quite possible that the unpainted castings could easily have been smuggled out of the factory, with the completed models being smuggled back in for wheeling.

This is probably the most absurd hypothesis idris has ever come up with.
And this obsessive repetitive use of word fake merely shows idris´s foolish contempt for the legacy Harold Colpitts and insults all forum members by tarring them with his own feeble judgement of the available evidence - most people here are far too sensible to value idris´s opinion when they can go with Harold Colpitts,who, as kwackers rightly says, made a giant contribution the beginnings of our hobby and was there at the time with contacts in the Lesney factory rather than being a 21st century armchair speculator like idris.
Tinman is one of the few ever who can make passable Lesney crimps at home - we already know Joe Stone and Bob Brennan had the factory connections to get these crimps made on Jack Odell´s R & D machine far more easily than finding some hobbyist with the tools and skills.
The majority of serious deep pockets collectors regards these crimped wreckers to have the same status as the other NAMC specials, the red/white and purple/silver tankers. Nigel´s playworn crimped wrecker that he found and has owned since the 1970s proves that some extras were made and stayed in the UK, not all went to USA with Joe Stone.

[Idris]

This is probably the most absurd hypothesis idris has ever come up with.
And this obsessive repetitive use of word fake merely shows idris´s foolish contempt for the legacy Harold Colpitts and insults all forum members by tarring them with his own feeble judgement of the available evidence - most people here are far too sensible to value idris´s opinion when they can go with Harold Colpitts,who, as kwackers rightly says, made a giant contribution the beginnings of our hobby and was there at the time with contacts in the Lesney factory rather than being a 21st century armchair speculator like idris.

I see that Mick has, once again, run out of worthwhile arguments and is, as usual, "playing the man" instead.

[Idris]

The majority of serious deep pockets collectors regards these crimped wreckers to have the same status as the other NAMC specials, the red/white and purple/silver tankers.

Unsupported speculation.

Nigel´s playworn crimped wrecker that he found and has owned since the 1970s proves that some extras were made and stayed in the UK, not all went to USA with Joe Stone.

What it proves is that there is one playworn example in the UK. It seems highly likely that it was never exported.

[Tinman]

Supported by tinman´s expert opinion when he examined one closely - impossible to tell apart from known genuine Lesney crimps!

We discussed this on the old forum and it was suggested that it was quite possible that the unpainted castings could easily have been smuggled out of the factory, with the completed models being smuggled back in for wheeling.

The paint test of the one model shows that at least one (which is strong evidence that a group of these} were painted at the factory.

This is probably the most absurd hypothesis idris has ever come up with.
And this obsessive repetitive use of word fake merely shows idris´s foolish contempt for the legacy Harold Colpitts and insults all forum members by tarring them with his own feeble judgement of the available evidence - most people here are far too sensible to value idris´s opinion when they can go with Harold Colpitts,who, as kwackers rightly says, made a giant contribution the beginnings of our hobby and was there at the time with contacts in the Lesney factory rather than being a 21st century armchair speculator like idris.

I certainly didn't read any insults towards Harold into his comments, nor did I read any further insults (toward others) into the comments. As for the use of the word "fake," this model has always been commonly described as the "Factory Fake." That, combined with the number of home made spurious Factory Fake reproductions, makes discussing this model impossible without typing the work "fake" in abundance.

Tinman is one of the few ever who can make passable Lesney crimps at home - we already know Joe Stone and Bob Brennan had the factory connections to get these crimps made on Jack Odell´s R & D machine far more easily than finding some hobbyist with the tools and skills.

I'm not seeing the connection where Idris or anyone else is saying that the model's base or axle ends were tooled anywhere other than in the factory. The comments quoted above conveys to me that even Idris is not disputing that the base and axle ends are factory tooled. Mick, I don't know what your point here is but it seems to be moot.

The majority of serious deep pockets collectors regards these crimped wreckers to have the same status as the other NAMC specials, the red/white and purple/silver tankers.

It's obvious that some collectors do highly value (by the merits of the price they are willing to pay) the Factory Fake reverse color wreckers. I would not assume or guess how any of these collectors view this model as compared to the NAMC tankers. The NAMC tankers are a well known club promotional model sanctioned by Lesney. The wrecker is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma and was distributed via cronyism in a clandestine manner (hardly like the documented tanker which was distributed via the club in an open manner).

Nigel´s playworn crimped wrecker that he found and has owned since the 1970s proves that some extras were made and stayed in the UK, not all went to USA with Joe Stone.

I don't know how Nigel came into possession of that model or how many times it changed hands before that. It would be interesting to find out more about that particular model's history. what is does prove is that someone deemed the model to be worth no more and a fifty cent child's toy. It's a bit of a red herring in this discussion.

[Idris]

I seem to recall that the origin's of Nigel's model were disclosed by Nigel towards the end of the "Joe Stone" thread on the old Forum. I don't recall the exact details, but I'm pretty sure that he purchased it in the UK at a swapmeet or such like.

[Tinman]

I seem to recall that the origin's of Nigel's model were disclosed by Nigel towards the end of the "Joe Stone" thread on the old Forum. I don't recall the exact details, but I'm pretty sure that he purchased it in the UK at a swapmeet or such like.

Then it's unlikely we will ever learn more about it and I still think it's a red herring with concern to this discussion.

I don't know what happened to my last post, but it's a bit confusing to establish the attributions until my very last comment.

[SMS88]

I seem to recall that the origin's of Nigel's model were disclosed by Nigel towards the end of the "Joe Stone" thread on the old Forum. I don't recall the exact details, but I'm pretty sure that he purchased it in the UK at a swapmeet or such like.

Then it's unlikely we will ever learn more about it and I still think it's a red herring with concern to this discussion.

I don't know what happened to my last post, but it's a bit confusing to establish the attributions until my very last comment.

How can it be a red herring when aside from the chips its identical to those given out to Bob Brennan´s closest friends??? I would not be surprised if a handful more turn up in the UK belonging to ex factory emplyees families ( think glazed 23cs that just surfaced) or sourced from those who collected in the early 1970s. Certainly Nigel did write that the guy he bought it from sold it for pennies as a playworn custom but Nigel recognised it as a genuine Lesney from the standard of its finish - either a former R & D model or an extra quality control reserve made kept by somebody who had factory access.

[Tinman]

How can it be a red herring when aside from the chips its identical to those given out to Bob Brennan´s closest friends??? I would not be surprised if a handful more turn up in the UK belonging to ex factory emplyees families ( think glazed 23cs that just surfaced) or sourced from those who collected in the early 1970s. Certainly Nigel did write that the guy he bought it from sold it for pennies as a playworn custom but Nigel recognised it as a genuine Lesney from the standard of its finish - either a former R & D model or an extra quality control reserve made kept by somebody who had factory access.

But that's only your guess. Who knows where it came from, why it was considered only a toy or how the seller came into possesion? It's because all those (unknown) elements of fact are missing that it becomes a red herring. If we just start assigning guesses and assumptions as facts, we are going no where.

[Rooster]

No one has addressed the Amber light in the Auction on Vectis circa 2006, The one on ebay(over 4K last look) today has the red dome. What is the info on the FF (factory fakes) does the story discuss the dome?
It seems the FF's were made to resemble the picture on the box which appears amber . I know those of you who consider a fake a fake , don't freak, I'm curious if that might be a means of distinguishing a FF from later fakes.
Stannard mentions the jib, the crimped axels and BP labels but nothing about the dome which to me would be a big deal.

Code 1's always have a red dome? Has anyone ever seen an amber dome in any original code 1,2,3 ? Or Superfast models?
thanks
Barry

[SMS88]

How can it be a red herring when aside from the chips its identical to those given out to Bob Brennan´s closest friends??? I would not be surprised if a handful more turn up in the UK belonging to ex factory emplyees families ( think glazed 23cs that just surfaced) or sourced from those who collected in the early 1970s. Certainly Nigel did write that the guy he bought it from sold it for pennies as a playworn custom but Nigel recognised it as a genuine Lesney from the standard of its finish - either a former R & D model or an extra quality control reserve made kept by somebody who had factory access.

But that's only your guess. Who knows where it came from, why it was considered only a toy or how the seller came into possesion? It's because all those (unknown) elements of fact are missing that it becomes a red herring. If we just start assigning guesses and assumptions as facts, we are going no where.

Nigel is a man of great knowledge & integrity well known for his articles in English diecast magazines. Its a fact not a guess that his playworn toy was UK sourced, never one of those Joe Stone got over to USA.Nigel´s example looked like a toy because it was chipped -thats not a guess,its a completely logical observation of chips which are indistinguishable from any others made by children. The dealer who sold it to Nigel considered it a custom because he was ignorant of the fact that R & D models were crimped into 1970! Even Nigel said he was unaware of crimped reverse wreckers or the examples shared amongst Bob Brennan´s friends when he found his.Its my personal expectation (not a guess) that a few more will surface in the UK in the future just as I predicted more Yum Yum SF19 Lotuses would turn up someday (wonderful surprise to see 4 within 3 months!). Finally how did the dealer get the playworn crimped wrecker - well Nigel and Nick have both mentioned employees sold toys to dealers/collectors directly or via weekend East End market stalls - the 2nd way is most logical because dealer didnt know it was special.