62c Mercury Cougar

[Idris]

Although neither the NAMC’s “Catalog of all Series Matchbox Models” (first edition) nor the AIM “1-75 Series Regular Wheels” catalogue (second printing, 1983) contain any unlisted variations, they both comment on the colour variations. NAMC lists yellow-green yellowish-green, and light yellowish-green whilst AIM merely states that "..the body is subject to various shades...".
Neither Houghton not Stannard contain any unlisted variations, and U.K. Matchbox did not cover the model.

I recall a discussion (on the Lefora Forum, I think) regarding the baseplate without patent no. This is listed for Nick's first three codes (cream/white, cream/red, first green/red), but I seem to recall that we struggled to find examples without patent numbers. Certainly my variation code 1 carries a patent no. Can any member confirm the existence of any of the first three codes without the patent no. on the baseplate?

[numi]

It would be interesting & exciting to find a specimen Mercury Cougar without patent nos on the baseplate.
numi

[mbox2000]

My code 1 and all green variations have the patent nos. So, if the code 1's have the no. Would it be safe to assume that if one exists without, it would be a pre-pro example?

[Idris]

Would it be safe to assume that if one exists without, it would be a pre-pro example?

Judging by the (lack of) response, it's certainly looking that way!

[SMS88]

I remember the 1st time I saw a cream Cougar discussion on MCCH many years ago this point came up and was regarded as an error because no genuine cream Cougars like Wolfie´s were without

[numi]

I remember the 1st time I saw a cream Cougar discussion on MCCH many years ago this point came up and was regarded as an error because no genuine cream Cougars like Wolfie´s were without

My take exactly Mr Mick.I firmly believe that Cougars "Without Base Patent Nos" do not exist.
numi

[kwakers]

I feel they exist Numi as assembled Trial models of the earliest castings sent out to distributors worldwide like Fred Bronner as a 'New Release'. I have seen, and still own two such pre-production models right out of Fred's display, so you never can say they do not exist as what they are. I think perhaps Martin's rule can be used on Nick's first three noted variations without patent numbers to drop them to a 'reported but not verified' subnote of authentic but suspected pre-pro Lesneys that are known. Every time we discuss models such as these, I remember Nigel's picture of several 23D Caravan Trailers Color trials that were rescued from Lesney's scrap bins. They still exist in Nigel's collection I believe, but they have never been noted in any Guides with their array of strange non-factory colours. Are they Lesney factory paint and quality, as some authenticators would argue to prove them 'REAL', certainly not, they are not painted production line quality at all. A picture like Nigel's lives with you for life! I could also mention the 23C glazed Caravan colour trials Nick has shared with us, same type of situation on them 'Existing as a collector's Dream'.
I am sure Nick had added variations 1-3 from a reliable source who may have found a similar treasure trove once upon a time. No Fairy Tale, just a Lesney Collector's dream like some of the singular models Nearlymint and Tim have shared pictures of with us......
Pre-pros YES, Store offered variations? Maybe in South Africa or in other locations where the Cream Cougars were found in 1968 on store shelves. I can say the Cream Cougars were not seen in our East Coast U.S.A. stores, or in Eastern Canada at all in our travels. I cannot say that one of the Cream Cougars without patent base that we are discussing was not in Fred Bronner's showroom display in 1968, but If they were known on our Coast as being in stores, they would have been noted in either or both of the NAMC and AIM Guides. Idris was not very clear in the fact that the Cream Cougar did not appear in either of these comprehensive U.S. publications at all. kwakers

[kwakers]

On re-reading my Post, the pre-productions I own are not any of the Cougars being discussed of Nick's Codes 1 through 3. I wish some days the Forum replies did have a correction screen before it's final Posting here........kwakers

[motorman]

You can edit your posts using the edit key on each post. Hope that helps

[numi]

I feel they exist Numi as assembled Trial models of the earliest castings sent out to distributors worldwide like Fred Bronner as a 'New Release'. I have seen, and still own two such pre-production models right out of Fred's display, so you never can say they do not exist as what they are. I think perhaps Martin's rule can be used on Nick's first three noted variations without patent numbers to drop them to a 'reported but not verified' subnote of authentic but suspected pre-pro Lesneys that are known. Every time we discuss models such as these, I remember Nigel's picture of several 23D Caravan Trailers Color trials that were rescued from Lesney's scrap bins. They still exist in Nigel's collection I believe, but they have never been noted in any Guides with their array of strange non-factory colours. Are they Lesney factory paint and quality, as some authenticators would argue to prove them 'REAL', certainly not, they are not painted production line quality at all. A picture like Nigel's lives with you for life! I could also mention the 23C glazed Caravan colour trials Nick has shared with us, same type of situation on them 'Existing as a collector's Dream'.
I am sure Nick had added variations 1-3 from a reliable source who may have found a similar treasure trove once upon a time. No Fairy Tale, just a Lesney Collector's dream like some of the singular models Nearlymint and Tim have shared pictures of with us......
Pre-pros YES, Store offered variations? Maybe in South Africa or in other locations where the Cream Cougars were found in 1968 on store shelves. I can say the Cream Cougars were not seen in our East Coast U.S.A. stores, or in Eastern Canada at all in our travels. I cannot say that one of the Cream Cougars without patent base that we are discussing was not in Fred Bronner's showroom display in 1968, but If they were known on our Coast as being in stores, they would have been noted in either or both of the NAMC and AIM Guides. Idris was not very clear in the fact that the Cream Cougar did not appear in either of these comprehensive U.S. publications at all. kwakers

We all read and feel your optimism as always Kwakers.Cream Cougars are pre-production models in its entirety.These pre-pro specimens with white interior,the partially crude casting,the lack of wipers & rear-view mirror on windscreen,the thinner windscreen trim,lack of undercoat/primer but with just a thin coat of yellow paint over un-cleaned and metal dust ridden bare castings lends credence to this.I have yet to see a Dead-Mint Cream Cougar.

The Cream Cougar is/has been on every collectors want-list ever since it existence was mentioned around 1983/85 as I understand and further in 46yrs no early collector or any new-comers had ever mentioned or written about any Cougar without the base patent nos.....Why? These had never even appeared in large toy auctions or any pics to prove that they do exist to say the least and thus remains speculative.

For now I still firmly believe that the Cougars without base patent nos do not exist but in time maybe,just maybe I could be proven wrong with the surfacing of just a pre-production proto-type specimen.

Also,both my Cream Cougars came from the Usa (one has since returned to another early collector in the Us in 2012) and the story about these being shipped mainly to Sa is just a fallacy.Perhaps Wolfie got lucky!
According to Dad and what he remembers clearly,only a few different Lesney castings (perhaps over-runs,over stocks or poor sellers)of Moko & RegWheels but a fair amount of different Superfast models in the 60’s & late 70’s on were imported into Sa only from the Us via an agent due to red-tape sanctions or trade agreements.Lesney products were never directly imported into Sa from the Uk.
numi