RW alleged 23 VW pre-pro

[kwakers]

Mick, I have seen no evidence to prove this model conclusively a Fake, have you anything further than these 2 pictures and accusations to present us here? Do you know how the suspension is set up on this RW model, or have added facts we can't see?
You asked for our opinions with YOUR mind made up, and to use the term ABSURD is pretty offensive to those who feel your opinion could in fact be based on faulty or inadequate input on the model you have been shown by this collector. Old time collectors like Antonin, George, Nick, Tinman and I (And MANY others who are much more private) have been surprised many times in our lives with odd Lesneys still turning up that simply do not fit the 'Mold' of our previous knowledge of timelines, but were results of possible Lesney experimental production. The idea that somehow regular wheels were not experimented with on some early Superfast castings seems out of touch with known facts.
The 34C VW Camper with lowered roof was actually outdated when that modified roof was released in 1968. VW had switched away from the divided front windshield design after it's 1967 model year. Do you in fact know that the new re-design of this #23 VW Camper was not under way in the late 1968-1969 period as a regular wheel replacement for that outdated #34? On 3/7/69, according to a tag existing on a #23 Eccles Trailer Caravan, a small run of these Trailers were produced with just a single axle, and also having regular wheels. This Eccles was not released as a Superfast till 1971, but yet it's body castings were available in March of 1969 for factory experiments. Absurd?, no, just known facts that may also apply to this #23. The Pat App does indicate an early Superfast base, but does that really make the existence of regular wheel experimental models Absurd? Perhaps you just mis-spoke....... kwakers

[nickjones]

I agree with Mick on this one.
It seems pointless to me that a superfast base would be paired up with regular wheels, why?
Just my opinion.

[SMS88]

Mick, I have seen no evidence to prove this model conclusively a Fake, have you anything further than these 2 pictures and accusations to present us here? Do you know how the suspension is set up on this RW model, or have added facts we can't see?
............................................
The 34C VW Camper with lowered roof was actually outdated when that modified roof was released in 1968. VW had switched away from the divided front windshield design after it's 1967 model year. Do you in fact know that the new re-design of this #23 VW Camper was not under way in the late 1968-1969 period as a regular wheel replacement for that outdated #34? On 3/7/69, according to a tag existing on a #23 Eccles Trailer Caravan, a small run of these Trailers were produced with just a single axle, and also having regular wheels. This Eccles was not released as a Superfast till 1971, but yet it's body castings were available in March of 1969 for factory experiments. Absurd?, no, just known facts that may also apply to this #23. The Pat App does indicate an early Superfast base, but does that really make the existence of regular wheel experimental models Absurd? Perhaps you just mis-spoke....... kwakers

No disrespect intended Dick, but the circled R after Matchbox could only be from 1970 as I said at the start - the other 2 castings which exist as sf pre-pros without the circled R but have them on 99.9% produced (but not all) are the 57 caravan and 68 Porsche which were released adjacent to 23 VW.Also i can see the grinding off of the year and the word Superfast has been crudely painted over with modern grainy silver paint.Not to forget the brushed daubings on both rivits and the front tongue.BTW the numberplate ends in an H which means post August 1969 pre July 1970 tooling whereas the 35 Merryweather ends in a G which means tooled between August 1968 but pre July 1969.Its a very unconvincing fake which has 100% standard 1971 production components - maker didnt even bother to use a gas flap body or 1 which shows where gas flap removed - shoddy fake, good custom imho

[kwakers]

As unlikely as regular wheels are on a Superfast base, I refuse to spend any more of my life continuing down a dead end street trying to pry information out of 'set' minds here Nick. We now have 5 pages of discussion, but no proof of Mick's 'FAKE' allegation. With no magnified axle end or base rivet pictures to see, and with no further comment from Numi on what she may see in her negative base picture, there is nothing that screams fake here to me other than opinions on timeline.
We cannot see the number plate on this 23 Mick, but knowing an H sets the body casting in 1970 is valuable, and was unknown information to me anyway before your last post.
This discussion has not been as scientific as I would like, so it now feels to me as though it is a lynching of a model from a collector with only two under-detailed pictures of it. There is not nearly enough information for a definitive conclusion in my mind, so I refuse to participate in any lynching Mick, this kind of post is why we older collectors harbor our secret models we know make little timeline sense, and they still remain undocumented after 40 + years.
Along with the many unanswered questions from SCM's 'decal' posts Joe has spoken so eloquently on, this 'alleged pre-pro' post may turn out to leave just as many doubts with me as it has facts. I dislike collecting Superfast era castings anyway, but would never publicly scream fake without further detailed examination of this RW 23 VW model. I have not only seen, but in fact passed up on, several questionable pre-pros and 'specials' in my 50 years of collecting, only to see later that they turned out to be part of a small (unknown to me) batch like the RW Eccles Trailer and 35 Merryweather Fire Truck that were factory produced, not at all the 'fake' I had initially regarded them. kwakers

[Idris]

I have seen photographs of RW baseplates fitted with SF axles and wheels by Lesney, but never one of an SF baseplate fitted with RW axles and wheels bt Lesney.

[mbox75]

Hi Everyone


In such questionable variants it would be if we Matchbox former employee of the final here were on the board these issues could confirm with certainty.

Cheers Mathias

[mbox75]

I would agree the authenticity only with a green model with fuel cap mold white interior and unpainted base plate without diving Why such models forever 45 years later, because they are Fakes.

Cheers Mathias

[kwakers]

You and Mick, as well as most viewers here are probably 100% correct on this one being a tampered with / possibly made up model Mathias. I, just being a notoriously fussy regular wheel collector, would just need to see both riveted axle ends clearer, and also see a couple more detailed base rivet pictures before I give up on this one being a possible factory experiment. Knowing that loose rivets are known on the base of some of these VW Busses, as well as now knowing the seemingly universal acceptance in the SF world that the tough gas cap casting was on both sets of dies right from the start (Not only just one in a pair as I still wonder about), has left me with my own doubts on this Van now. Finding things not right on either the axle ends or the base rivets would change my vote on this one. The lack of a fuel cap, the interior color, and the SF base are simply not enough for me to use the 'F Word' on Mick's (excellent for SF knowledge and discussion) post right now.
I would like to see a SF Post opened up on the rear casting details of the earliest 23 VW Superfast Vans with gas cap castings to see if both different rear end casting treatments are in fact known on them. If only one type rear casting is known on all of them, that may open up an interesting die pair question on the earliest castings known of this model. Nick should at least catalog the added rear details as more than just a footnote if they in fact do not appear on ALL of his known variations as his listings now imply. George's picture at the site nicely shows the major difference in the 2 castings quite nicely. If Christian has already recorded those two different rear treatments on early Gas Cap models to answer my question, I apologize in advance. Caveman 'Not sharp at all on Superfast castings' kwakers