RW alleged 23 VW pre-pro

[SMS88]

I see silver paint and filler where the C 1970 and SUPERFAST letters have been ground off. Note also the circled R after Matchbox which firmly dates this base palte casting to the same time that the baseplate for the #68 Porsche was amended to include the circled ´´R´´ after Matchbox.1971-72 parts repainted.

[kwakers]

Nick's variation Guide does not indicate that the R after the Matchbox was ever missing on the first run of these Mick. Was this true on the 23 VW?, and if so, some additional variations were somehow missed and now need to be added?? I still don't see anything indicating grinding on the base of this one, the thick base paint obscures everything under it.
Because unpainted components are available once in a while on these models, an unused body may have been modified at any time to create oddities within the factory, and the riveting process on the base still looks legit to me on this one. It may be a homemade 'Fake' on an 'In Hand' inspection, but if so, a very well executed one. kwakers

[SMS88]

Nick's variation Guide does not indicate that the R after the Matchbox was ever missing on the first run of these Mick. Was this true on the 23 VW?, and if so, some additional variations were somehow missed and now need to be added?? I still don't see anything indicating grinding on the base of this one, the thick base paint obscures everything under it.
Because unpainted components are available once in a while on these models, an unused body may have been modified at any time to create oddities within the factory, and the riveting process on the base still looks legit to me on this one. It may be a homemade 'Fake' on an 'In Hand' inspection, but if so, a very well executed one. kwakers

My R point is the timeline of the release of those new toys which had circled R after Matchbox -this baseplate is too late design to have been made in 1969, would have been tooled right after the #68 Porsche which makes it late 1970 at best, 1971 certainly.
The rear area looks filled where Superfast has been removed.Silver paint on genuine Lesney baseplates was never thick nor as grainy as this, think #45c or 75b or 20c to match real Lesney silver. Those rivits look retouched - its easy to pop & snap on baseplates off these, and when refitting the wise swap over a baseplate from a different example so that its a snug fit.

[kwakers]

I guess you were asking our Forum's opinions with your mind already made up on this 23 Van Mick. The 68 Porsche was actually tooled and released in 1969 as you have said, predating the 23 Superfast VW Van which was released in 1970. That makes the 'R' a trait that was in use earlier than you are arguing Mick. I may have to remind you now that there were 2 different color VW Beetles shown in one garage scene in Bronner's 1970 Dealer's book that featured a mix of regular wheel and Superfast models in a lot of it's pictures. A red one on the lift, pictured in a late 1969 photo of Bronner's? It is possible that this 23 Van model is as 'Fake' as that red VW Bug may have appeared to us in 1969 if it had not been featured in a Bronner publication. (I may now have to check for a 'New' #23 VW Van in that '1970' book also)
We really can't tell now what 'Experiments' were done at the factory on any of these early Superfast models. We would have to buy this Van from your Facebook friend, and then ruin it's base paint to prove anything about it. Even then, depending on what we may find, each of us may have a different opinion of the facts about it once the model was 'ruined'........kwakers

[SMS88]

I guess you were asking our Forum's opinions with your mind already made up on this 23 Van Mick. The 68 Porsche was actually tooled and released in 1969 as you have said, predating the 23 Superfast VW Van which was released in 1970. That makes the 'R' a trait that was in use earlier than you are arguing Mick. I may have to remind you now that there were 2 different color VW Beetles shown in one garage scene in Bronner's 1970 Dealer's book that featured a mix of regular wheel and Superfast models in a lot of it's pictures. A red one on the lift, pictured in a late 1969 photo of Bronner's? It is possible that this 23 Van model is as 'Fake' as that red VW Bug may have appeared to us in 1969 if it had not been featured in a Bronner publication. (I may now have to check for a 'New' #23 VW Van in that '1970' book also)
We really can't tell now what 'Experiments' were done at the factory on any of these early Superfast models. We would have to buy this Van from your Facebook friend, and then ruin it's base paint to prove anything about it. Even then, depending on what we may find, each of us may have a different opinion of the facts about it once the model was 'ruined'........kwakers

Kwakers -it s a well known fact that the #68 Porsche was a 1970 release , in G box not F box so not even an early 1970 release like those in F boxes. I have an opinion based upon what I can see in the photos but I didnt write it here at the beginning,not until after reading initial replies here to make sure that I hadnt missed anything. Pre-pro 23 VW are known,one with a black painted baseplate, all with gas tank flaps and most with ivory seats unique to pre-pros.

[SMS88]

Here is another car belonging to the same FB collector who is not a friend of mine, just somebody who shares photos of interesting collection online. This one could be genuine or could be a very good custom example of a very well known 1971 colour trial which survives in small but significant numbers, made for the decision to replace dark blue SF with light blue versions was taken. Examination of rivit and paint spray patterns could support or discredit this car

[kwakers]

The Porsche was designed and available to distributors for U.S. orders in late 1969 Mick. They were more than likely carded by Bronner and sold even before any of their boxes you mention were ready. They may have also been sent to the U.S. distributors first to compete directly with our Mattel Hot Wheels, so your statement of 1970 may be accurate for their U.K. and Continent distribution. I will check Bronner's 1970 Dealer Catalog if I can tonight, I believe the Superfast 68 was pictured in it when it was printed in late 1969. Our U.S. Bibles seem to be a bit different than your 'Well known facts' on this one Mick. kwakers

[SMS88]

The Porsche was designed and available to distributors for U.S. orders in late 1969 Mick. They were more than likely carded by Bronner and sold even before any of their boxes you mention were ready. They may have also been sent to the U.S. distributors first to compete directly with our Mattel Hot Wheels, so your statement of 1970 may be accurate for their U.K. and Continent distribution. I will check Bronner's 1970 Dealer Catalog if I can tonight, I believe the Superfast 68 was pictured in it when it was printed in late 1969. Our U.S. Bibles seem to be a bit different than your 'Well known facts' on this one Mick. kwakers

The list of models actually available in USA in 1969 is well known,this #68 Porshe 910 wasnt one of them.US blisters included the boxes, no G boxes appeared prior to spring 1970 on evidence available to me.Perhaps kwakers is confusing this model with F boxed #45 ford group 6? If no fuel flap VW camper bodies were available in 1969 they would have been the very common version which shows traces of where the fuel filler was removed by adding a rough temporary patch.This beige body shell is from the 2nd or later mass prodution run with properly remade side casting. The G3 set could be the 1st appearance of the 910 but again i have no evidence it could possibly have been in stores prior to easter 1970

[kwakers]

The evidence and our period documentation is clear to us over here Mick, no confusion at all on my part. You should have taken up my offer last year of a copy of Bob Brennen's first Superfast listing which he published in 1972 with all the early legitimate variations we had found over here. He also has the release date listed on this Porsche as 1969, while the #45 Ford Group 6 you suggest I am confused with above is listed as not being released until 1970. I do have a lot of correspondence from 1967-1972 concerning variations of models as they were released in different areas of the U.S., but we regrettably did not note the date we actually found each of our 'New Superfast Releases' in local stores. Fred Bronner's Matchbox Club publications actually highlighted these in great detail, so we never kept track of them as Bob Brennen apparently did for his concise guides.
As I said earlier, Lesney had to ship these Superfasts quickly (and without a reasonable order at all) to the U.S. to save their Butt. Mattel had killed them with their new 'Hot Wheels' line, but they killed me by cancelling my favorite Regular Wheel lineup. Life in Matchbox collecting was never the same for me after 1969. It was also a tough year for my favorite music legends with the death of Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, and Janis Joplin within months of each other......kwakers

[SMS88]

I doThe evidence and our period documentation is clear to us over here Mick, no confusion at all on my part. You should have taken up my offer last year of a copy of Bob Brennen's first Superfast listing which he published in 1972 with all the early legitimate variations we had found over here. He also has the release date listed on this Porsche as 1969, while the #45 Ford Group 6 you suggest I am confused with above is listed as not being released until 1970. have a lot of correspondence from 1967-1972 concerning variations of models as they were released in different areas of the U.S., but we regrettably did not note the date we actually found each of our 'New Superfast Releases' in local stores.......kwakers

Of course I did accept your kind offer for a copy of Bob Brennan´s first Superfast listing but you never actually sent it, you lost the original package you planned to send me in your basement and then a month later made up a new one.Transitionals are my main area of interest , any additional historical information/confirmation is not only most welcome but enthusiastically pursued by me I didnt remind you last year because I didnt want to seem ungrateful for the wonderful blistered #69 Rolls.
So now we have a situation report of a model with copyright 1970 cast into the baseplate being released either without any F box design or a G box being reported in stores at christmas 1969 contrary to previous discussions here with Nigel and a others.If the #68 Porsche was released unboxed it would have been in a giftset perhaps G3 but then that would have required the #52 Dodge Charger to have been available too which also was actually released in 1970.The #45 Group 6 actually has a copyright 1969 baseplate so is the most logical addition to the in stores for christmas 1969 list. Previously the 13 known USA 1969 SF releases confirmed by Christian F as the definitive list last time we discussed this usually came in red SF script F boxes #5 Lotus , 8 Mustang , 14 Iso , 15 VW Beetle ,20 Marzal, #25 Cortina , 33 Muira , 35 Merryweather , 41 Ford GT , 56 BMC, 62 Mercury ,67 VW 1600TL & 69 Rolls