67b Volkswagen 1600 TL

[SMS88]

Perhaps those guides copied the no tow guide variation from the same erroneous source ? Release date wise the 67b is right at the beginning of the era of new cars being released with tow guides,it may have actually been the first!

[kwakers]

The #20 Taxi was released in 1965 as a pre-pro we believe in small numbers without a Tow Guide Mick. These are probably as rare as your 1965 reverse color Wrecker since almost immediately they had the die modified to add the tow guide to the front of the Taxi's base. The #31 Lincoln had the first tow guide I can recall, it was added in late 1964 after a three month run of early blue ones without it.
On the 1967 release of the #67 VW fastback, Stannard's code 1 has the tow guide missing along with the patent number, just as on Nick's code 1. This variation seems to be as rare as the 20 Taxi without tow guide, and Mike Stannard may have well seen this one in the Lesney Company's private collection he had access to when compiling his 1985 Guide. Nick has not listed the base without tow guides, but with patent number that Stannard has with both hub cap variation and also with wheels and tires. These are again two variations that we need to verify as having been produced, but may be easier said than done. Lesney's collection may also have included these two rarities Nick does not list, but they may never have been released to the public. They could also have just been released in tiny numbers while the base dies were being modified to include both the 'new' tow guide and also the 'new' patent number as they were added one at a time. I am sure Mike Stannard saw all three of these variations in the flesh to list them in his guide, but who owns them now? Does anyone presently own any variation of the 67 VW without a tow guide?...........kwakers

[Idris]

Dick, what you're missing is that Stannard completely failed to catalogue the 'no tow guide, with patent no. base'. The fact that this variation is owned by members, plus the fact the no one appears to own a 'with tow guide, no patent no. base' variant, and the difficulty of justifying the tooling migrating via two different routes from 'no tow guide, no patent no.' to 'with tow guide, with patent no.' forms an extremely strong argument for Stannard (and those who copied his work without checking it first) being wrong.

[Taniwha]

Errors in Stannard are not unprecedented...

Dick's argument is quite rational too. But then, do we really include pre-productions as variations? Stannard does note some variants he considered to be pre-pros or colour trials, but not the variation of 67b in question.

Cheers,
Gavin

[kwakers]

You mis-typed your statement Idris, but I know you meant the model without tow guide in your Post, that is our point here. I also have that 'New to Stannard' base without patent number but with tow guide. That one was documented by Bob Brennen in his 1971 NAMC Guide 14 years before Mike Stannard missed it in his 1985 Guide. That base casting's existence seems to indicate that the die pairs had to have been changed independently of each other in opposite ways during very early production runs, or even during pre-pro trials of these base dies. Tinman has noted many incremental die changes that were found undocumented on other models, why not a belief in this rare variation of Stannard's with patent, but without tow guide?
As for Stannard's accuracy and faults:
I am sure the timeline of the 35 Snow Trac's decals, raised lettering, and then his non-existant without decal statement were incorrect as written by Mike himself, but the variations he listed are all known to exist.
I am also sure the front wheel timeline is reversed on the 6 B front domed wheels with and without lugs, but again the variations all exist along with others we have since added, and also now with an additional Tipper casting that Chris and I both have that is still uncatalogued by Nick that Stannard missed. That being said for Mike's inaccuracies:
I have never seen Positive proof that any of Stannard's listed variations do not exist at all. He may have missed the fact that some of his un-noted variations are now considered pre-productions by us 30 years later as these two variations may be, but they still exist. Most of Stannard's odd variations have eventually come to light, and been shared publicly. I know of only the singular 23C Trailer with glaze that was listed with it's out of timeline SPW that is now resting somewhere in a collection, but was probably a trial or factory 'Special' rather than a store sold variation that he should have recorded differently in his Guide. I am almost sure he had to have seen that one in Lesney's own collection, and assumed as we did for decades that the glaze was not available at the beginning of the 23Cs production. That SPW model with glazing is now out there somewhere owned by a very private collector I am sure. That glaze was so rare and virtually unknown, I can forgive Mike an inaccuracy on documenting that one as a variation rather than a 'Trial Fitting' out of Lesney's own pre-pro shop.
I have not missed your points Idris, but I still believe in fairy tales and Santa Clause, just as I still believe Mike Stannard, Phillip Bowdidge, Nigel, and many other lifelong collectors combined their knowledge to make Mike Stannard's Guide the most detailed and accurate listing of Lesney casting variations that we are still working from almost 30 years later. Nick's treatment of the 67B I also believe is correct for now, the other 2 models without tow guide but with patent number now would seem to be only factory die trials they are so rare. I do believe a small number still exist hidden away today, so we have no arguments. I am hoping by just having a very interesting discussion on the guide-less base, that someone may bring out a picture of one, or perhaps one from a lurker who may wish to remain anonymous. Many of our strange observations such as this one have brought us new details on models over the years, and also many interesting discussions such as this one. Cheers! kwakers

[Idris]

You mis-typed your statement Idris, but I know you meant the model without tow guide in your Post, that is our point here. I also have that 'New to Stannard' base without patent number but with tow guide. That one was documented by Bob Brennen in his 1971 NAMC Guide 14 years before Mike Stannard missed it in his 1985 Guide. That base casting's existence seems to indicate that the die pairs had to have been changed independently of each other in opposite ways during very early production runs, or even during pre-pro trials of these base dies. Tinman has noted many incremental die changes that were found undocumented on other models, why not a belief in this rare variation of Stannard's with patent, but without tow guide?

Dick, many thanks for pointing out the mistake. I have no corrected the text in order to avoid confusing any newcomers to this thread.
Whilst I appreciate your idea that the two tools could have migrated from 'no tow guide, no patent no.' to 'with tow guide, with patent no.' via different routes, I would suggest that this is unlikely not only because only Nick's and not Stannard's variation has been found, but also because one of the variations involves a patent number. That is an important item of intellectual property protection and I find it inconceivable that Lesney would have modified one baseplate tool by adding that information, but not the other.
Anyhow, time will tell and perhaps one will turn up in due course (but, at the moment, I do think it highly unlikely).

[ChFalkensteiner]

I think George has asked the magic question, does anyone have one, or has anyone ever seen the non-towguide variation of this VW? I have only read about it, they must be VERY RARE. If the non towguide model exists, we need to have firsthand information on it to confirm it's details rather than guess which came first, the patent number or the towguide......kwakers

I am not sure if this is still of relevance, but here is a picture of this model's base without the tow guide:



Note that beside the patent number it is also missing the "(A)" behind the rear axle.

I am ashamed to say I do not remember clearly where I got this picture from (dated March 2010); it may have come from Hardy. This model may well be a pre-production item.

[Idris]

This model may well be a pre-production item.

Looking at the patination on the baseplate, I think it probably is.

[nickjones]

I think the baseplate is bare mazac if I am not mistaken.

[Brad Pittiful]

I think George has asked the magic question, does anyone have one, or has anyone ever seen the non-towguide variation of this VW? I have only read about it, they must be VERY RARE. If the non towguide model exists, we need to have firsthand information on it to confirm it's details rather than guess which came first, the patent number or the towguide......kwakers

I am not sure if this is still of relevance, but here is a picture of this model's base without the tow guide:



Note that beside the patent number it is also missing the "(A)" behind the rear axle.

I am ashamed to say I do not remember clearly where I got this picture from (dated March 2010); it may have come from Hardy. This model may well be a pre-production item.

what about the wheels...it looks to me like its a tire with hubcap vs the tire with hub...does it look like that to anyone else?