56A BPW BP VISCO STATIC

[scmcollection]

Question.

Do you have one & if you do where did you buy it and what condition is it in?

My take.

BP Visco Static (BPW / picture box) is a fabricated fake made in the late 1980s in England to catch out “would be” fraudsters, it was made using original factory left over decals & reported via word of mouth on the British Swapmeet scene.

[nickjones]

I did have one, it was mint and boxed, bought from vectis circa 2004/5, examined by myself and Hardy Ristau, It looked fine, no signs of frilly edges or stretching to the decal.

[scmcollection]

No other thoughts on this one then...

[Idris]

No other thoughts on this one then...

I've certainly never had one, and I don't think I've ever seen one (fake or otherwise) in real life.

[scmcollection]

Several through VECTIS, also I remember seeing one on eBay about 10-12 years ago "Thomas Collection" if I remember correctly. According to his site the Matchbox Grizzly got one in his "Amazing bus collection" Didn't one also appear on eBay a year or two ago?

I stand by my statement, it was a fake made to catch out fakers.

[Tinman]

The prodigal soothsayer returns. Can you provide anything other than ad hominem commentary of generic fakery? The fakers names? Anything that could be validated or useful?

I've long held the two line green Pickfords van as highly suspect. So far, no proof of it being real or fake.

With regard to the electric trolley, I've actually caught fakers red handed doing decal reassignments (switching). However, there is nothing concrete to prove or disprove that Lesney made a few of these.

[Tinman]

The problem with authentication of the 56a and the 46b is complex. Both have been published in a number of guides and books as valid variations so their "folklore" is well established. One person simply making the statement that they are fakes made using old decals isn't new. None of the people who've made that statement can ever provide any factual evidence to back up that claim.

It's reasonably easy to determine if the decal on any specific model is genuine or counterfeit. After the fact, one can NOT determine when that decal was placed on the model. In some cases, there are signs that a decal may have been reassigned and in other cases it's impossible to tell.

What makes this complex is that once a genuine Lesney decal is placed on a genuine Lesney model (at the factory or several years later), in many cases, there is no way to tell if it was done by Lesney or done later. Thus an examination of the model concludes genuine model with genuine decal = actual variation. It becomes a point that is very difficult to argue and nearly impossible to prove otherwise.

The only way to prevent possible fraud is to strip the value assigned to such rare decal variations and value them the same as common models. This is a practice that some collectors use and they never pay a premium for decal variants. That certainly won't stop dealers from asking super high prices or will it stop other collectors from paying those high prices.

Some things just become valuable because they develop a cult following within the hobby. For some, they would never pay the prices that a late casting, paper label, red hook and crimp axle reverse color wrecker can command. Maybe it was made in limited numbers by someone on purpose, maybe it's a lunch box special. No one knows for sure but that doesn't stop the cult following and the high prices they command.

No one has ever come up concrete evidence about the Beals vans. Maybe they are just glorified Code 2's and all the work was done outside the factory. That's never stopped their popularity and high prices. These rare decal models will likely continue to be popular and command premium prices regardless of the questions that surround them. Hearsay may stir the pot for awhile but never seems to have much affect on the taste of the soup.

[scmcollection]

I am talking about things that have passed, so calling me a soothsayer? Then breaking out with an ad hominum, well that is funny because you started out with a condescending comment. Without digressing further if you are trying to goad me don’t bother because it won’t work.

Back on topic, I am more interested to know what others believe.

The Visco Static Q1 was reported in the early 80s by a group of collectors here in the UK, one was made up using existing decal stocks and displayed at a couple of fairs (Romford & Windsor if my memory serves correct), it was a BPW with picture box, for years nothing happened but in the early 1990s one changed hands (a fake), it was then sold to a prominent dealer and was sold publicly for around £100 pounds, I am not sure where it went after that. What I do know is that within 6 months several others started to appear on the market mostly via Vectis or on eBay and it was in this time they were added to catalogues & the legend gained its rubber stamp of approval.

I ask… who has examples of these models (green Pickfords 2 line or Visco Static Q1) in play worn condition? The answer will be NOBODY, why? Because they are either decal reassignments or they were made using existing stocks of old Lesney decals after hearing the rumours that the toys existed back in the early 80s. Make of it what you will, if you want to spend money on this toy that’s your choice, I just don’t feel it has any place within catalogues & guides valued at hundreds of pounds conning would be buyers into a false sense of security.

That’s my take, I invite others to comment sensibly on this subject, if you have one how did you get it, if bought privately from whom?

[Tinman]

My comments are neither intended as insult nor praise. If you would go to the thread on the 46b, there's multiple pages of comment there. Regardless, there is nothing there that proves either model to be fake or real. That thread has bloomed into 7 pages of discussion and it's based on the exact same question as this new thread. The older thread really covers both these models and the question is based on the exact same rumor.

The green two line 46b was cataloged well before the early or mid 1990's. That in itself proves nothing either. The 46b in question was seriously discussed on the mcch about 10 years ago and there was no earth shattering results of that thread either. I'm not trying to goad anyone but I did ask if you have anything more than hearsay.

The story about someone making a fake decal 56a (or 46b), was that you? Did you witness it being done? If not, then the story you relate is hearsay, rumor, folklore. From that evidence you repeatedly make bold claims that all two line 46b's and visco static 56a's are fake (complete with rolling eye smiley after one of Nick Jones comments).

I consider my position on these models a very reasonable one. I need more than he said, she said hearsay and rumor to make a statement such as "these are all fakes." What I am saying is that it's premature and irresponsible for scmcollection to present his opinion as a fact when it's based on nothing more than folklore. I welcome the opinion, just don't use folklore as facts.

[Diecast]

The prodigal soothsayer returns. Can you provide anything other than ad hominem commentary of generic fakery? The fakers names? Anything that could be validated or useful?

I've long held the two line green Pickfords van as highly suspect. So far, no proof of it being real or fake.

With regard to the electric trolley, I've actually caught fakers red handed doing decal reassignments (switching). However, there is nothing concrete to prove or disprove that Lesney made a few of these.

I completely agree with you Joe. It is like just screams in the dark, which lack any arguments. It seems that the same scenario of 46b repeats here (and maybe we will see next time the topic e.g. 5b London bus with decals "Visco Static" is fake also). When we began the discussion of 46b the green 2 line Pickfords, I had some doubts about its authenticity. But the exeistence of the repainted green model to blue one has dispel my doubts and supported my assumption that both colors could be made ​​simultaneously for short time. Now I am almost 100% convinced that 46b the green 2 line Pickfords is genuine.
Instead of peremptory refusal of 56a BP Visco Static I would rather welcome a professional discussion here.
Antonin