Pre-pros

[Lrrp59]

Does anyone know just how many pre- production models Lesney may have produced for any one model. RW or SF.
It seems that there are a lot of these showing up lately.
Just an observation.

Thanks,

Jeff

[SMS88]

I am sure many are faked however there are also some genuine ones coming out of closets as their original owners die or go into OAP homes.Its a case of knowing how to tell a fake from the real deal..........

[kwakers]

I think there are just a lot more pre-pros showing up because we are now sharing them on this Forum. When odd early models are shared, the knowledge allows us all a chance to even check our own collections for small pre-production details that have been 'unknown' to us all these years. After that, we have 20,000 Lesneys to shop and buy from on E Bay any given day.
I was going to joke about Jason's latest amazing pre-production 'Finds', but I have to give Mick credit for noting that original owners, which also means ex-Lesney factory workers and/or their families, are now bringing out some historic older Toys like those glazed 23C Caravans for us to see. This is true of regular wheels and my observations on them. As for Superfasts, there are so many unpainted bodies and components still available, I will leave comments on those to someone more involved with them. kwakers

[Lrrp59]

I think there are just a lot more pre-pros showing up because we are now sharing them on this Forum. When odd early models are shared, the knowledge allows us all a chance to even check our own collections for small pre-production details that have been 'unknown' to us all these years. After that, we have 20,000 Lesneys to shop and buy from on E Bay any given day.
I was going to joke about Jason's latest amazing pre-production 'Finds', but I have to give Mick credit for noting that original owners, which also means ex-Lesney factory workers and/or their families, are now bringing out some historic older Toys like those glazed 23C Caravans for us to see. This is true of regular wheels and my observations on them. As for Superfasts, there are so many unpainted bodies and components still available, I will leave comments on those to someone more involved with them. kwakers

You are up late. I really would like a best guess on how many pre- pros may have been produced for any given model. It would explain how Lesney conducted their marketing.

Thanks,

Jeff

[kwakers]

On the old Forum we discussed the fact that we suspect a single box of early release models were sent out to each major distributor around the world. That guess is based on the numbers left surviving in each market today. The problems with trying to guess the number of pre-pros for each model is that we suspect each will be different. The other problem is that we cannot say what was the pre-pro for many of our Lesneys, even 50 years after their release.
Last week we suspected the 35 Sno Trac with large decals and no axle braces may have been the pre=pro of that model. This week first Antonin has shown us his without the axle braces but with the faint outline of two extra rear windows. That was a hint enough for him to check the front picture of his 1965 Bronner's Dealer Catalog. We now can see that 'pre-production' model pictured there has two extra rear windows barely visible at the angle of the picture. After showing us that unexpected detail, he then showed us a catalog showing one without decals, with ski rack brace added, but with a flat roof. Was that one ever cast as an early pre-pro, or was that an artists rendition done in advance of the actual tooling? I understand that this #35 may be an extreme example, but Jason's # 7C Refuse Truck pre-pro with white base was already documented by Stannard 24 years ago as also having been released with a black base. I would not even try to hazard a guess on how many pre-pros of this Truck were done with red cabs, let alone try and sort out whether other trial colors were tried on their cabs along with their odd bases.
Nigel showed us a picture of some 23D Caravans that were saved from a Lesney 'Scrap Bucket' when they were rejected 'color trials'. I believe there were 6 pre-pros pictured in different colors that would not exist today if someone didn't bring them home with them. The first 'pre-pro' yellow Caravans that got sent to distributors like Fred Bronner had white interiors and casting differences that would be strengthened for the production versions soon to be shipped. How we separate color trials from 'pre-pros' is one question, how many were produced of any of these odd first runs is probably a question no one can answer. kwakers

[Martin Avis]

It is impossible to put accurate numbers on what we loosely term pre-pros because we don't necessarily know if a particular hitherto unknown model is an R&D sample, a colour experiment, a proof of concept, part of a real 'pre-production' run designed to test the structural integrity of a particular mould or simply fakes. R&D samples and colour experiments - created to give the Lesney directors something to choose between, may have been made as one-offs. The other, later pre-production runs, testing paint or moulding, could have resulted in tens or hundreds of models.

While some of these may have been squirrelled away by Lesney employees, we must remember that they were only ever considered to be cheap toys at the time. I am sure that provided they were not falling apart, Jack O'Dell would have had them boxed up and sent out.

So many so-called pre-pros seem to emerge 'from the collection of an ex Lesney employee' that the scale of theft among the limited number of people who would have had access to such things beggars belief.

[tjlglass]

Pre pros are popular at the moment because the price for them is high and many people are cashing in from there stored models. Yes there are many fakes as the fakers can see the profits involved but most of us can spot them by now. I have now and in the past had many pre pros and most of mine have come from ex employees.

[Moyboy]

I can well remember when you couldn't sell a prepro just for the reason they were so different. You could truly pick up stacks of bargains at one time and I remember passing a small swap at a hall somewhere in East London on a day trip out with the wife. I just had to stop and have a browse and there were so many oddities on almost all the tables. I missed out on a purple Y9 Showmans here as a horrible small kid found it just before I got to the table. There were also things like white flying bugs and other assorted variants that I didn't have a clue what they were as I wasn't into small ones back then. I still came away with half a dozen MOY models with incomplete dates and Y numbers so was more than happy but still could have kicked that small kid for getting the Y9 !!!

Staff used to pinch new models for their kids/ grandkids so it is almost sure that they got the new one off the line for them. These early runs may well have had casting changes to them or been a paint run trial. I know my mate Derek had stacks of them at his house and nearly all were prepro.

Things got a bit more dubious later on when they started to gain high prices and the specially made models, made to pay the bills, appeared on the swap meet run - "yes you want them in bright green and pink, no problem"

[grillin]

Pardon my ignorance, I was reading all the comments and would like to know which are the mean pre-pros
thanks
guillermo

[GHOSTHUNTER]

Hello Grillin,

Not sure what you are saying, if your wording is meant to say 'MAIN PRE-PROS' then a number of 'Pre-Pro' models is linked to the number of models put into production and marketed in the retail shops.

During the 1960's, a model started out as a large, 8 to 10 times size wooden master 'Buck' model, smaller 'close to actual size' models were made from this.
During the 1970's, larger master models were made out of various metals, usually brass and then smaller versions made from the dimensions of this metal master.
In more recent times, master models have been made from plastic compounds like nylon or resin based plastics and while all these are essential in the design and prototype stage of model production, none of these are considered as 'PRE-PRO' models.

Any model that is close to full production, is considered as a 'PRE-PRO' model and these are used to evaluate the production process and to see if any modifications have to be carried out on the moulds and in most cases they are. Many 'PRE-PRO' models are hand assembled using components cast with the intended moulds, to make sure all fit properly and to highlight any problems etc.

Models actually cast in the moulds are classed as 'FIRST-SHOT' examples and are still used to check the moulds are working properly, these are often classed as 'PRE-PRO' models as well and these exist in low quantities and do turn up on the collectors market.

So, for every main model made by Lesney in the U.K. and its Foreign subsidaries around the World since the 1960's, there has probably been a 'PRE-PRO' example made, for evaluation purposes, marketing possibilities and then it is likely to be chosen for full production.

Then there are models made by hand as possible 'Prototypes' that get rejected for various reasons such as overall cost, not a popular subject or too similar to a model already in production, These are often seen as further 'PRE-PROS' and there are no true records of this type of model regards the subjects chosen or the numbers of examples to have been made, usually two or three only.

In view of the above, it is very difficult to put an accurate number towards how many "Mean (I think you meant 'MAIN pre-pros') pre-production models" and I am not going to try, sorry.

This has been a simplified overview of the facinating aspect of 'PRE-PRO' models and I am sure other members will come forward with their own views and comments on this.

Regards
GHOSTHUNTER.