46b Pickfords 2 line in green.

[kwakers]

My 2 line Pickfords is also a Nick Jones Code 8, (Also Code 8 by my Stannards just like Kerbside's). That has the 9X20 GPW, the type B body, and the type A trim.
While everyone is looking at their Pickfords, Please check for a green 3 line with later 10X36 BPW and the type A trim that included the silver headlights. Both Nick and Stannard do not have this one listed, but I have had this variation for many years now. (Sorry SCM, this is not to steal your thread, but to show you an example of how we sometimes can add to Nick's listings while we are discussing your particular odd Moving Van and are busy looking all ours over).
This green 2 line decal variation is a new one to us Martin, but before we talk too much about pulling the plug on it in Nick's listings, lets do some research here. SCM has knowledge of some of this one's history, but have any of our friends in England ever seen one other than in Nick's listings? We yanks never had any promotional Pickfords other than those we traded for early on. I believe mine was bought from a dealer out of an early collection over here, but dealers then and now seldom reveal their sources. Ray Sytch from New Jersey always had tables full of rarities directly from Terry Gunner, Phillip Bowdidge, and many other veteran English sources. I am very interested in learning more on promotional Pickfords. kwakers

[Idris]

I've just had a good look at Nick's 46b catalogue page and must admit to being a little surprised by two things. First of all, the two-line green Pickfords has an entry in the variations table, and ii) it only has a single casting variation.
So, is this entry based on Nick's inspection of a sole specimen, or have several models been examined and all found to be identical castings? If the former, then we are no further forward in our deliberations, but if the latter, then that goes some way to suggesting that at least some of these models might be genuine.
The problem in all of this is we know that Lesney had a pretty relaxed attitude to stock rotation coupled with a “waste not, want not” approach. Combined, these make a two-line green 46b plausible. There again, the strong arguments against such a variation are it not being reported at the time and (I assume – please correct me if I’m wrong) only mint examples being known.
It would therefore be interesting to hear from Nick about the background to the entry in the variation table. Does it represent a single model or not?
Furthermore, if any Forum member is prepared to own up to possessing one of these models, could they please list the wheel, body and trim variations so that we can establish whether the examples known are random variation codes (as could reasonably be expected if they are all fakes) or whether there is some kind of underlying order, albeit masked by the later addition of faked examples.

[nickjones]

Hi Hugh.
Of the green two line Pickfords, I have only seen the one example that is in a USA collection belonging to a highly respected lifelong collector. It is possible that he may have had connections to Bronner.

[kwakers]

Thanks for the info Nick. I have no problem with mint examples of this 2 line green Van showing up now because they were produced up until 1967, and are considered a 'Late' regular wheel model by we elderly guys. I was part of a very strong collecting (snail letter writing LOL) community by 1967, and we were all looking closely for any odd variations we could find in our respective areas. I am sure the same was also true in England with any promotional model to leave the Lesney factory. My parents and I would have traveled to every Pickfords outlet to get at least one promo from each by then. Why are these green 2 liners still unknown?
Most of the collectors I had been writing to out of 'Toy and Train Quarterly' that I later met in person in the 1970s turned out to be in their 40s and 50s by then. I was still a teenager! Most were my Dad's age, much to his surprise when many of us went to a meeting at Ed and Abby Meyers house in Connecticut. I was able to bring not only an odd piece out of Fred Bronner's display, but also the mixed color Hatra, GPW 28 Jaguar, and a couple of other unknown variations that Bob Brennen listed in his 'New' Guide that was published in 1971. I am not the U.S.collector you mention Nick, but I just as well could be in his position on this model.
Promotional models were usually given out to adults as advertising for the company's services. Some were brought home to children to play with, while others are still showing up mint and boxed from the early collectors who hoarded them. Some are even now being found in the boxes forgotten in people's attics.
All of this above is just a little background from a collector who still has a very open mind to what may still be discovered today. Were some 2 line blue Pickfords promotionals snuck out as lunchbox 'specials'?, probably. Could they still be proudly displayed in our collections all over the world today? probably. Are they treated any differently than the ones Pickfords handed out in 1962? No. Why? They are indistinguishable from each other.......
The question of the 2 line promo in green is best asked to some very old Pickford company or Lesney ex-employees on your side Nick. Could Lesney have been trying to convince Pickfords of a later promo in green ? There seems to be a silence on the Forum that indicates maybe these have not been seen at your toy shows or at Vectis' auction sales either. Let's give the variation some time to try and sort out with Nigel and others on the Forum. Perhaps a 'lurker' may come forward one day with some added info. (Lurkers are those who are reading our Forum SCM, but choose not to join in with the madness here) I have a feeling SCM may also have some new info for us to consider on this one. What we have here is exactly what you have already printed Nick, a controversial code that I cannot say is not original, but I also cannot say is real either.......kwakers

[Idris]

Of the green two line Pickfords, I have only seen the one example that is in a USA collection belonging to a highly respected lifelong collector. It is possible that he may have had connections to Bronner.

So how many are there actually known? (I have never seen nor been offered one.)

[Dr Jazz]

I am interested in what SCM will bring to light for us! I have never seen a green 2 line. But I dont now any collectors personaly and I do not go to fairs and stuff anymore. But I am online everyday looking on pages in all over the world, auction houses and so on. Again I have never seen one. but I have also never seen a Porsche with a scorpion label, so I still have fare to go

[Diecast]

So how many are there actually known? (I have never seen nor been offered one.)

I have one green model with two lines in my collection, but I do not boast about it, because I'm not sure about it. I will show you some photos, when I am back at home.
Antonin

[Idris]

I have one green model with two lines in my collection, but I do not boast about it, because I'm not sure about it. I will show you some photos, when I am back at home.

Besides the variation code, it would be interesting to know how you came by it.

[nickjones]

When I was writing my 1-75 guide pages I included every known variation, I thought it better to include everything and demote the pre pros and lunchbox specials to a footnote at a later date if it was found necessary.

[SMS88]

When I was writing my 1-75 guide pages I included every known variation, I thought it better to include everything and demote the pre pros and lunchbox specials to a footnote at a later date if it was found necessary.

This is indeed a potentially high value toy that people will discuss so it is very important to have a photograph and comments in your listing. Must admit that I am also surprised that you gave it a code.We know that unused 2 line decals were included in the factory liquidation sales so its now a question of proving whether or not any of the known green examples existed in respected collections prior to 1983 - my bet is that they didnt,that they appeared soon after factory sell off of unused decals.Pickfords had shops in many UK high streets into the 1970s featuring their dark blue + white corporate colours - orange later added if i recall correctly- the suggestion that they would order emerald green official souvenirs when they had more than enough money to pay Lesney to make them in dark blue doesnt ring true for companies that actively build their premium brands and trade on that image.By 1967 the #46 Guy was a very vintage looking truck which wouldnt have been much of a promotional asset so I have no problem seeing the change to emerald green for the #46 coinciding with Pickfords desire not to hand their customers an old fashioned looking toy truck but allowing Lesney to use up the decals that had already been printed.