Feeling somewhat alienated in the 2014 Matchbox market.

[kwakers]

I have to pick on vetrad a bit after reading disparaging remarks about this site a few Posts ago. Nick has shown the 2 line Pickfords in green as a variation for very good reasons I am sure. He has fully disclosed the controversy around the existence of that variation as a code one model, so his aim is quite clear there. In order for Nick to have included that one, I am sure facts on it's existence were thoroughly examined. Proper conduct here is to ask about such a variation on a separate Post and encourage conversations on that particular one if you wish answers vetrad. We do NOT to shout fake without direct knowledge on the subject, do you have some thoughts to share with us? I do agree that the variation is now out of timeline as code 8 because of the 'early decal', and that should be addressed and/or corrected (??).
The use of the term 'Just one of many' as a description of corrupted variations on Nick's regular wheel site is pure Bull. If you can support this kind of allegation with model numbers and their individual codes you question, please present your questioning of them on their appropriate Posts. We veteran collectors here may be able to show you examples we may have had in our collections over 50 years now since new. As we die off, you may find that kind of opportunity at real first hand facts to be quickly diminishing.
If your gripes and faults vetrad are entirely decal variations on inappropriate castings, a 40 year old fake cannot be distinguished from an original factory produced oddity, and we all know that fact. When original Lesney decals were made available out of the factory, many decal variations I did not find in stores just became of little interest to collectors like myself.
Any reference to Ramsey's, Charlie Mack's, Bob Brennen's, Harold Colpitt's, or any other older Guide you read on the Forum is done not to add fake variations to Nick's excellent guide, but to expose mistakes that may have been made in the guides in question, or to in fact improve our details here.
I will conclude my rant over your statements above vetrad with the fact that trusted sources of regular wheel variations here at Nick's site are NOT 'getting the facts mixed up' to quote you, they are still quite lucid and straight amongst we Forum members here. Please question away, and we will answer any doubts you may have on our 'FACTS'. Caveman kwakers has the Bigger Club here I am sure.......LOL

[nearlymint]

I have to pick on vetrad a bit after reading disparaging remarks about this site a few Posts ago. Nick has shown the 2 line Pickfords in green as a variation for very good reasons I am sure. He has fully disclosed the controversy around the existence of that variation as a code one model, so his aim is quite clear there. In order for Nick to have included that one, I am sure facts on it's existence were thoroughly examined. Proper conduct here is to ask about such a variation on a separate Post and encourage conversations on that particular one if you wish answers vetrad. We do NOT to shout fake without direct knowledge on the subject, do you have some thoughts to share with us? I do agree that the variation is now out of timeline as code 8 because of the 'early decal', and that should be addressed and/or corrected (??).
The use of the term 'Just one of many' as a description of corrupted variations on Nick's regular wheel site is pure Bull. If you can support this kind of allegation with model numbers and their individual codes you question, please present your questioning of them on their appropriate Posts. We veteran collectors here may be able to show you examples we may have had in our collections over 50 years now since new. As we die off, you may find that kind of opportunity at real first hand facts to be quickly diminishing.
If your gripes and faults vetrad are entirely decal variations on inappropriate castings, a 40 year old fake cannot be distinguished from an original factory produced oddity, and we all know that fact. When original Lesney decals were made available out of the factory, many decal variations I did not find in stores just became of little interest to collectors like myself.
Any reference to Ramsey's, Charlie Mack's, Bob Brennen's, Harold Colpitt's, or any other older Guide you read on the Forum is done not to add fake variations to Nick's excellent guide, but to expose mistakes that may have been made in the guides in question, or to in fact improve our details here.
I will conclude my rant over your statements above vetrad with the fact that trusted sources of regular wheel variations here at Nick's site are NOT 'getting the facts mixed up' to quote you, they are still quite lucid and straight amongst we Forum members here. Please question away, and we will answer any doubts you may have on our 'FACTS'. Caveman kwakers has the Bigger Club here I am sure.......LOL

I do not think it was Vetrad that said this if you look back, I think it was scmcollection refering to the Pickfords.
Or maybe I am just losing it. J

[motorman]

All these faked non existent variations showing up for sale for me highlights the vital importance of good honest listings like Nick´s & Christian´s being available so that collectors are aware that variations not accredited by the respected elements of the collector community are most likely FAKES or CUSTOMS.

Yes but you miss one vital underlying fact, both of these lists are corrupted.

Take for example (just one of many!) the listing on this very site regarding the 46 Guy Removals van in green with two line Pickfords. It is proudly displayed as being authentic (code 10 in the sites listing! Though code 3 would be more appropriate) whereas UK Matchbox confirms for us & I quote “the excess 2-line decals were sold separately, so a model could have been ‘made’ at a later date”. Time & time again I see on this site, printed guides such as Ramseys, Mack & other internet lists showing fakes as real! It’s why I despair at the state of the hobby today, even the trusted sources are getting the facts mixed up. How a new collector wanting to collect rarer issues copes with this sort of inconsistency I don’t know.

Kwakers, please let some light into that cave of yours, it just might make you read the posts a bit better!!!!

I think you will find that you are shouting at the wrong person. David (vetrad) is not who you should be ranting at.

Now please adopt the following position......place tail between legs

[scmcollection]

Firstly, I think you owe David an apology.

Secondly, nobody is shouting, is that even possible on the web?

You say open a separate post, I am not a forum person, I don’t do this sort of stuff and genuinely I do not think I have the patience to faff about with opening a separate post for each variation that’s fake.

The lists are corrupted because of “bad eggs” feeding the cataloguers with crap & lies for their own personal gain. I will say again in no uncertain terms, the green 2 line Pickfords is a fake using original left over “surplus / unused” decals. It’s not a theory, it’s a fact and it’s a fact that’s been lost in the passage of only 30 years. I am warning you, stop looking for it, don’t spend you hard earned pennies on it, I am not charging you for this info but in the end it’s your wallet & free will if you choose to agree with me or not.

Most of these odd decaled models can be sourced back to a stash of decals that came onto the market in the UK back in the 1980s, others have been transferred using various techniques that I do not wish to go into deeply on a public forum but these are easily spotted after doing a bit of homework. I know of many other fakes like this, though I feel that if I mention which models these are (many accepted as real) a lot of the big names are going to get egg on their faces, in fact you will discover what you thought was trustworthy will be exposed for what it really is.


So red pill or blue pill? The choice is yours.

[kwakers]

David, 'Vetrad', I am sure understands my haste this A.M. in answering the Post he had re-quoted. I do owe you an apology David, your words were not the ones I quoted. I see it was scmcollection who has accused our regular wheel listings as being corrupt here. I am just the opposite of David, not being able to speak authoritatively about Superfast codes and variations on Nick's listings.
Re-addressing scmcollection: If you announce to the world that you believe 6 years of our hard work here is flawed with 'corrupt codes' the first week you are posting here, I now see why you are unhappy in our diecast hobby. If the facts about your accusations of decal re-asignment are only that Lesney released their extra supply of decals, that is simply ancient news. The 5C Drink Peardrax decaled Buses with both GPW and BPW are extremely rare models factory produced by Lesney. I will now quote Harold Colpitts from 1976, 38 years ago, "However, due to these decals being sold to collectors a few years ago,it is now impossible to authenticate those from an original! Any model now would be doubtful". That same logic applies to all the old decals that left the Lesney factory unused during that period of time.
You are 'shouting' Fakes scm, Please re-read your exact wording about Nick's site and "corrupt listings". This is not some free for all you have joined in, and if you are not prepared to defend the accusations you have presented about 'fakes' at Nick's variation site on our Forum, maybe more thought should be put into your words. It is your choice not to collect rare decal variations as it is also mine. With that said though, I am not going to generalize that all rare decaled variations now coming to market are 'fakes' from the 80s.
We personally sold on 7 early G-4 race sets that contained both 19Cs with #5 decals, and also the 52A with #5 decals on them. We bought these factory packed sets in Montreal, Canada, so all the Racers were original with their 'rare' decals. Can their owners now provide the provenance I could in 1969?, certainly not. If you want clarification on any rare decals Nick has listed in his excellent guide, just ask an old collector without any motive of profit to gain. If you feel Nick's RW Guide has been fed 'with crap and lies' as you have just stated, you are not at all knowledgeable in my humble opinion. kwakers

[Martin Avis]

Secondly, nobody is shouting, is that even possible on the web?

You say open a separate post, I am not a forum person, I don’t do this sort of stuff and genuinely I do not think I have the patience to faff about with opening a separate post for each variation that’s fake.

The lists are corrupted because of “bad eggs” feeding the cataloguers with crap & lies for their own personal gain.

Shouting, screaming or merely accusing it all has the same result - you are damaging your own point by alienating the very people you feel need to hear it.

If you are not a forum person, what are you doing here? This is a forum. Learn our ways. We discuss things. We pore over facts and eventually those facts (or whatever a majority consensus agrees upon) get fed into Nick Jones' variations listings. Those listing are not perfect, as I'm sure Nick would be the first to admit, but they are the best we currently have. Any glaring errors are usually pointed out in separate threads in the appropriate parts of the forum and then discussed before Nick makes amendments to the listings.

We do not, any of us, have the right, or the ability to 'feed the cataloguers with crap and lies' as you suggest. In fact we have several tried and tested requirements before a new variation is even considered (for instance, a new casting variation is not generally considered for listing in the guide until at last two models in different collectors hands come to light).

However, as Nick's guide was originally based on Stannard, and several collectors' amendments to that, it is always possible that early variations were added without such rigorous proof being available. The early guides were, after all, compiled long before the Internet allowed us to have a worldwide reach into many significant collections.

You clearly have a lot of knowledge, which I'm sure we all would appreciate your sharing, but at the moment you are acting like an arrogant loudmouth crashing a dinner party. We'd like to welcome you, but you are making it very difficult. I humbly suggest you climb down off your soapbox and enter into the spirit of forum discussion - I'm sure you'll find it a lot more rewarding.

Martin

[Idris]

If you care to take the time to look at past topics, you will find that an open and frank exchange of views in posts is welcomed/encouraged (no heavy-handed moderators here!), that fakers and fraudsters are not tolerated on the Forum, and that suspect Ebay sellers and toyfair dealers are routinely outed.
If you are really interested in helping to eliminate the rogue entries from the various listings (as opposed to merely haranguing us from your soapbox), then I would invite you to join us and help us improve Nick's catalogue. You cannot acheive your avowed aims alone - you will be just another voice in the wilderness.
Could I suggest that you open a topic about the two-line 46b Pickfords, setting out your arguments about why it is an invalid entry, and see where it leads? If you feel that we are being unfair or not taking you seriously, you can leave at any moment. If, however, you like the way the discussion develops, then that should be encouragement enough for you to start more topics regarding what you feel to be suspect models.
We are all more than happy to discuss any of the listings with you, but only in a calm and collected manner, using logical arguments backed up, wherever possible, by hard evidence. The ball is in your court.

[scmcollection]

In the medium of internet forums tonality of voice seems somewhat difficult to gauge, so please read my posts inside your mind using the voice of the British presenter Bob Harris & you will get a better idea of how I am presenting this. I am not shouting.
Arrogance I’m afraid again I am not sure how you can gauge over a textual medium such as a forum, I am not by any means an expert, by definition an expert is a person who knows every single detail about everything on the given subject, so it would be very arrogant indeed to say that I am a “Matchbox expert”, this is something I feel that nobody can say & its something I always steer away from (especially those self proclaimed experts).

What you need to know about me is that I have been a collector of Matchbox since the early 1980s, a serious and studious collector since the early 1990s & that my collections over the years have included the very rarest of the rare, 98% of which were purchased from good sources, for example I have owned & still own some of Ken Wettons models. I am very militant regarding fakes & those that make them because I got caught out with an expensive fake in the 1990s, thankfully a local group of true “old school” 1970s collectors helped me out, pointed me in the right direction and showed me where to learn.

I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick regarding my decal comment, I did not mention the models you were talking about (Perdrax 5c etc) and do accept that real ones exist, though personally I would never pay a high price for any of them and if one did come before me I would need to know its provenance before making what would have to be a very modest purchase. I am not talking about these so please forget them as their history is indeed well documented.

What I am talking about is (please read this carefully and slowly before hitting the reply button) specific models created from these surplus decals so that those in the know could see who was a fraudster; I know who these people are, what was made & who set about making facsimiles to sell on the collectors market & pocketing a small fortune. Please read that again before hitting replay, not being arrogant, not shouting, I just want that to be crystal clear.

The point about the decals on the 46 Pickfords is down to my first hand experience. What riles me is the fact that its listed as a variation & coded into the list rather than being a side note with a warning regarding the decals that were on the market as the 2 line blue model traditionally always was. My irritation is down to the fact that this information is easily accessible for those that have the old written literature, but to those who rely exclusively on the digital medium for guidance they will think all is ok and it’s good to buy one of these faked green models & forget to take care when buying a 2 line blue.

That’s why I say the list has been corrupted, corrupted has several meanings in British English (8 in my British Oxford) but I am aware that in US English it has far fewer variations (3 according to my 2010 advanced US English Dictionary) so if that wording has put a raccoon in the pants of anybody stateside please accept my apologies. Let’s take this opportunity to edit the wording to “in my humble opinion the listings have been distorted”.

As I say in my first post, I am utterly disgusted with the state of the hobby today, how it got to this point I just don’t know, the age of the internet has made the business of fakery mainstream and I for one am out. If you don’t take me seriously it’s your wallet, just don’t expect me to say its ok if you put it under my nose at a fair or convention.

[kwakers]

I like your clarification of terms SCM, and welcome you and your knowledge to our Forum. I have collected since 1964, helped document models for the pioneer U.S. Matchbox guides including the 1968 Toy and Train Guide to Matchbox Cars. We have seen and learned a great deal since those simpler days in collecting. Being as I am a yank from the U.S., we did not receive any 2 line Pickfords, they all had to be sourced from collectors like Phillip Bowdidge, Nigel, and many other pioneer collectors on the other side of the pond. Pickfords 2 lines I will leave to you Brits to talk facts on.
I am off to drive my Lorry now to pick up tyres, so I look forward to your input here in the future SCM. I am much calmer now that I suspect we are on the same team hating fakers and fraudsters. There is a 23C glazed window Post you may find very informative that will introduce a lot of the characters here on our Forum. If you get some free time, read it and know that there was also that same amount of info on a Post we had at Lefora that was live at the time the pre-pro was being offered on E Bay. It's butchery is still very well documented, but we did lose some very interesting old pictures and live comments on the offering and the sale of the very original humble looking Lesney historical artifact. That may tell you a bit about us, and also our motives and discussions of merit. Cheers! kwakers

[Idris]

It sounds like you have detailed knowledge which would prove invaluable to the collecting community and that you are troubled by these fakes being peddled as genuine rarities (supported by incorrect entries in electronic catalogues). So, once again, I would suggest that we go about this in an orderly and structured fashion. (Sorry, I’m an engineer.)
Since your concern seems to be with the fate of some of the original factory decals released to the market in the early 1980s, why not start a dedicated topic to that effect? We can discuss which models are/might be affected, how they were sold into the marketplace, by whom they were sold (we do need to be aware of the libel laws though), and perhaps even what we should be looking for. (For instance, did all the fakers make the effort to use the correct casting/wheel combinations?)
If you want to change matters for the better, then please work with us within the structure of our Forum to do so. (Perhaps I’m biased, but I don’t think you’ll find a more knowledgeable, English-language audience of Matchbox experts anywhere else on- line.)